Camera and/or NVR?

[ralph]

Hi Everyone,

I am presently specing a system with just 2 cameras at the moment, and have determined on the following, but will probably add more in the future
DS-7608NI-I2-8P 8 Channel NVR with a 2TB HDD
DS-2CD2346G2-ISU/SL 4MP AcuSense Fixed IR Turret Network Camera With Two-Way Audio and Alarm
DS-2CD2347G2-LU 4MP ColorVu Fixed Turret Network Camera

My question is, with just two camera is there any reason I shouldn't manage the cameras directly apart from the fact that the amount of data stored will be limited to the capacity of the SD Card?

Is there any loss of functionality especially in the area of VCA?

Thanks very much for your advice, I'm a complete newbie at this and the number of variant and option is mind bending!

 

[Dan]

Hi @ralph

From our experience, there should not be any limitations or loss of functionality when recording to onboard MicroSD card storage, we have actually found that because the AcuSense cameras use quite high bitrates and eat up a lot of your NVRs bandwidth, it can actually be a more stable operation to run multiple AcuSense cameras at max. settings on MicroSD cards rather than an NVR with other cameras where the bandwidth might overload and you may see the image quality of cameras drop or cameras just not stay connected at all.

Also, when running on MicroSD cards you can manage/live view multiple cameras in one place using Hikvision's free iVMS-4200 software

 

[ralph]

Thank you Dan, That's really helpful. I'll have to look up how to work out how long a 512GB card will last before starting to be overwritten. The software presumably runs from any (multiple?) PCs and you can also use HIK Connect from a mobile device?

 

[Dan]

Yes, the iVMS-4200 software can be installed on multiple PCs and if you set up P2P or Port forwarding for remote access via the Hik-Connect app you can all add the cameras to iVMS-4200 running on PCs outside your local network.

 

[mkerton]

I am looking to avoid the added complexity and unreliability of PCs. It seems to me a good idea to completely avoid using computers in a CCTV system. I am interested in hybrid PoE NVR/VMS. Linux looks like the way to go, but I'd appreciate observations. My need is for a fully functional 8/16 channel PoE NVR. Your Vivotek ND9322P looks interesting. Any thoughts/suggestions would be most welcome.

Regards Michael

 

[Dan]

Hi @mkerton

What you describe is quite a complex setup, if you want to manage devices via a VMS then you will need a PC or Server to run that on and we would not recommend using a device running Linux OS because most VMS developers do not offer Linux compatible software. If you want to avoid using PC access of any sort then the best solution is to run an NVR like the Vivotek model above with direct HDMI monitor connected to access the system.

The only downside to only using a direct monitor for access is that it can limit your access to some camera-specific settings, this is why we usually recommend also running a PC alongside so that you have browser and/or VMS access to individual cameras.

 

[mkerton]

Dan,

Thank you for your valuable contribution. I never thought setting up a CCTV system would be such a challenge. In my naievity, I expected Plug-n-play. Anyhow, I would most appreciate a listing of the most important camera-specific settings that would not be available if I go for the Vivotek/Linux route. My preferred NVR was the Hik I series, but the poor support for Mac and no timeline for Hik to dump the old ActiveX plug in precludes that. I have contacted Hik and am awaiting answers, but I won't be holding my breath. It's a shame really, Hik spouting about being the biggest and best, but pinning all that on an out of date plug in.

Much appreciated Michael

 

[Dan]

Can you confirm what your planned setup is when you say "Vivotek/Linux route"?

 

[mkerton]

Dan,

Thanks again. My initial requirement is for 6 cameras. 2 of which PTZ, all PoE with duplex audio 4MP, perhaps 6MP on some. Eventually to 10 cameras all full duplex PoE. 4 cameras to be remote (30 metres), served by Cat6a with PoE switch. Storage is not a real issue, but say 2 x 4TB RAID. I have Macs and dont like PCs, they are unreliable and Hik, by sticking with ActiveX are even limiting to speific PC configurations. Not too old, not too new. A shambles that I fail to understand the rationale of.

I would really appreciate an idea of features not accessible by rejecting PCs, or specificall iVMS.

Thanks again Michael

 

[Dan]

ok, it was really the Linux element that was confusing me but I assume what you are referring to is that the Vivotek NVR is built on a Linux OS and not that you want to run the system on a computer running Linux? (it confused me as most people don't mention the NVR OS because most NVR manufacturers use Linux as their platform)

For Browser/VMS access on a Mac Vivotek is one of the best options as there other manufactures out there who have developed improved browser/Mac solutions but Vivotek is one of the only ones that offer a full NVR/Camera solution. Vivotek's new browser solution is still in development, below you can see a screenshot of our demo system accessed via the new browser interface. The current biggest limitations of this interface are that you can only access the Live View and Playback, you cannot currently access NVR/Camera settings. To access the settings menus you need to switch to the old browser interface (see below) which is quite easily done with the click of a button, we have discussed this with Vivotek and they have told us that they are working on a complete switch over to the new browser interface that will include the settings menu but their R&D team is very squeezed at the moment fulfilling multiple roles and so the estimate we have received for the full switch over is Q3/Q4 this year.

The bigger issue for Mac users when it comes to the limitations of browser vs. direct monitor access is the access to Smart Event settings, it is currently not possible to edit the Smart Event settings (e.g. draw lines for line crossing, draw intrusion detection boxes, etc...) from a direct monitor. With a browser, you can directly log into each camera to access the event settings but we have found on our office Mac when using Chrome that when you try to login to the cameras you reach the live view page but it then freezes up and you cannot access any of the camera settings. (we think this is probably to do with the fact that the UI when directly accessing the cameras is still very old [older than Hik's camera GUI] and so is not fully compatible with the modern browsers.

We expect that this Smart Event/old camera GUI issue will also be resolved around the same time as the full NVR GUI issue is resolved.

A way around using a browser at all whilst still having access to the camera settings is to install Vivotek's VAST2 VMS which is highly rated by end-users. (we often recommend it to Schools)

In general, support for Mac users from most of the main IP CCTV brands is poor, and so your best solution may be to look at a VMS built from the ground up for Mac users, the VMS we often recommend is Security Spy which is a very up-to-date VMS with support for new camera models from many different manufacturers being added all the time.

 

[mkerton]

Dan,

Thank you so much for the obvious effort you put into your answer and suggestions.

Yes, I was referring to the Vivotek NVR/Linux. The browser support is a real issue. Waiting for Q3/4 may well reveal Hikvision getting their finger out before then . Event seettings are a must. I cannot see your screenshots!

The Vivotek's VAST2 VMS looks like it still needs a PC. Does this get installed on an NVR? or does it need its own VMS box?

Security Spy looks interesting. I have taken a look and am unsure whether this can be used with either the Vivotek or the Hik I series. Forum entries seem a bit nebulous. Any observations?

Am I missing something? Doesn't Hik make a iVMS server with an embedded PC? would that eliminate the need for another PC?

Really appreciate your input Dan

Michael

 

[Dan]

Hi @mkerton

apologies, the screenshots are now in the above post.

I would not pin your hopes on Hikvision pulling their finger out resolving the browser issue before the end of this year, the partial browser solution they currently have for I-series NVRs and G1 cameras (2xx5FWD/2xx5G1/2xx7G1) took them many years to release and when we have spoken to them before about it not being full solution they have said in more words that their focus is not on a Mac solution and they don't really plan for any further development in this area. We think it is very likely that Hikvision will wait right up to the cliff edge (the end of Internet Explorer) before they try and find a better, more modern solution.

In regards to VAST2, yes any VMS will require a PC or Mac to run it. This can be either a standard desktop PC/Mac if you are just using it for monitoring purposes or if you want to all manage storage and recording you will need to build a custom server with dedicated storage to install the VMS on.

We only have a small amount of hands-on experience with Security Spy so I am not sure of its compatibility with Vivotek NVRs, I would recommend emailing their technical support - support@bensoftware.com - to get the most concrete advice and also to get confirmation of what Vivotek NVR/Camera features are supported because as a 3rd-party software they may not support every feature that a full Vivotek solution would offer.

Hikvision does have something similar to what you describe as an iVMS server, they call Workstations but they are not a popular choice in the UK market because they are much more expensive than the same sized NVRs, there is also no UK stock of these models and so they would be special order (non-returnable) with a long lead-time to fetch from the manufacturer.

 

[mkerton]

Thanks for the screenshots and your further observations. Sorry to be a pain, but I'm going to ask anyway

It could be I find a cheap PC. Is this only needed to configure or troubleshoot issues. In other words, can I unplug a PC when setting up is over? And therefore, no really high spec would be needed!

So the Hik workstation is not popular in UK. I can see the duplication here. It would be nice if Hik integrated all this tech into one NVR and then all the PC/Mac browser issues would be wiped out. Thanks for your views though. As I see it, the cliff edge will be some years after IE dies. So for me, it has to be Hik plus PC of move elsewhere. A shame really I really like Hik cameras, but if any old PC works, then it might be game on with Hik.

Thanks for heads-up over SS, I'll get right onto that.

 

[Dan]

Yes, a basic PC setup for the initial setup and future troubleshooting if you encounter any problems is all you really need it for and then for the majority of the normal monitoring & viewing of playback you can use a direct monitor.

 

[mkerton]

Dan,

I came across this. Do you have anything similar/more up to date/comments?

Regards Michael

 

[Dan]

yes, this is the plug-in free solution that the I-series NVRs and G1 cameras are currently running, as far as I am aware not much has changed since this document, the only thing that may have changed is playback for individual cameras. (if they have MicroSD cards installed)

 

[mkerton]

Ahhh,

Do you have a link to the ActiveX solution?

 

[Dan]

It was introduced in an old firmware release for the I-series NVRs and G1 Cameras, as long as you are running the latest firmware the plug-in free solution will be available. (see it mentioned here in v5.6.0 release notes for the G1 cameras)

Unfortunately, as I mentioned earlier this is only a partial solution, it is only supported by certain newer models (I-series, G1, and a few other) with no plans for support of K-series NVRs and older camera ranges (R6 - 2x22/2x42 or R0 - 2x12/2x32), also annoyingly the solution is not as stable on Mac as it is on PC with some features/menus that do work in Chrome/Firefox/etc... on a PC not working in the same browsers on a Mac.

 

[mkerton]

Thank you again. I'll have to re-work my plans, but it looks like the Hik solution is back on. I have "found" an old Win 7 laptop, so it looks like I'm back of track. Best I carefully go back over my plans and pass them by you for a nod . Shame re the Mac, but if I dont need this for every day operations, then o be it.