Have I bought a turkey?

[DrPhilG]

Hi all

I realise that my registration on this forum "after" I bought a system is perhaps the wrong way around, but here I am anyway.

I just bought this system:
IP CCTV Systems On Sale | Get Free Ireland & UK Delivery

I have a 5 year old CCTV system and I wanted to upgrade. We've had a few burglaries in the area recently and although I was able to pick up the scumbag's car passing my gate, the quality is not what I would like. The old system is a Hikvision NVR with 4xQVIS 3MP (@20FPS) cameras. I do want to add 2 more cameras and the kit in that link has 6 x 4MP cameras so it seemed ideal.

However I had a quick play with the system last night and I'm far from impressed. I didn't connect it to the internet yet but I just plugged 2 cameras into the NVR and connected the NVR to my TV via HDMI. The pictures inside were OK but not overly impressive either, quite grainy. But the night images were very fuzzy. Compared to videos I've seen of that system on youtube it's terrible.

Am I doing something wrong? Is it just not a great system?

For some more background - I have an absolutely horrible internet connection at this stage, about 3mbps down and 0.3 up. However I'm getting fibre installed in the next few weeks so I'll be on a 150mbps package. But i understand that the broadband issues will only affect what can be viewed remotely so last nights offline testing was definitely disappointing.

If I've been "sold a pup" then I'll be sending the whole lot back and any recommendations would be appreciated. If the system is fine and I've just not fine tuned the settings then any help or pointers would be great too.

Pictures below. Bear in mind that these are not screenshots, just photos taken on my phone of either the TV or the current monitor, so the lines etc are to be expected. But the grainy image is more concerning.

Old system (pictures taken on my phone of the monitor currently used)

Side

Rear

New system (pictures taken on my phone of a 60" TV)

Front

And this one is this morning in daytime. Still very grainy and not what I'd expect of a 4MP camera.

 

[Phil]

Thanks for sharing.

Although we have been Hikvision partners for 5 years or so at use-IP, we opted NOT to offer HiWatch/HiLook.
Basically, because the cameras etc. are dumbed-down to hit a price level (literally old/earlier tech) and we didn't think it was what our customers wanted .

We tend to find that most customers have the attitude that - whilst they've got the ladders out / are paying an installer, then for a few dollars more they would rather buy the best; realising it is very likely going to be in place for at least five years AND should something untoward happen, they want THE best chance of providing good evidence.

Of course, I understand that:

• Everybody has a budget
• CCTV tends to be a grudge purchase
• To some degree any system acts as a deterrent

We here at use-IP have never been hands-on with HiWatch/HiLook, and can't really offer you much in the way of suggestions to improve performance.

One thing I would say, from years of testing cameras - your first impressions won't be far wrong!
i.e. if the sensor / lens / infra-red combination doesn't work well 'out of the box' then adjustments will only tweak it, you won't find a magic setting that suddenly makes the camera work a lot better.

Also, general advice when buying kits - it is unlikely that you actually need the same lens focal length for each camera location you have planned. You should consider and select a camera that's right for each mounting position and planned area of coverage. Often in discussions we talk enquirers down from that wish to buy 4, 6, 8 cameras today, and recommend that they purchase just one initially. You are so much wiser after you have been hands-on with one camera.

Hopefully, others will be able to drop you a response with their feedback on the relative performance of systems they have worked with.

BTW - A customer recently uploaded his night-time images in this Post:
hikvision IR at night

 

[DrPhilG]

Thanks

Sounds like I did indeed buy a turkey then... My old system has a poorer spec on paper but clearly better results.

I don't mind spending a bit more for a better kit. I might pack this lot up again and ship it back for a refund.

Where is the best subforum here for advise on building a system individually?

 

[Phil]

By far the biggest percentage of our customers select and are happy with a Hikvision solution.

I think that a read-through this thread is a good starting point:
HikVision - Top Thirty Tips

Followed by considering whether it may be worth waiting until July(?) for this year's latest models:
HikVision EasyIP 4.0 launch announced today!

 

[DrPhilG]

It's a minefield. I've heard often that Hikvision is the gold standard, yet now I buy a Hikvision HiWatch system and find that it compares very badly to my much older Qvis camera.

I'll post some pictures of the area and hopefully someone can recommend a better system.

Do you know if it is likely to be the cameras rather than the NVR that is to blame for my poor quality images?

 

[pyrotenax]

Heres one of mine from the other night , just popped latest firmware on then captured this with my PTZ...

 

[DrPhilG]

This seems to be a highly rated camera:
DS-2CD2355FWD-I

More expensive at just over £100 each. But I could get away with 4 of them and re-use the old Qvis cameras for 2 of my shorter range needs.

What is the best I can do in terms of nvr? The one I bought and will be returning is i208m-b/2t.

 

[pyrotenax]

DS-7608NI-I2/8P is a popular choice.

 

[DrPhilG]

Some side by side pictures, using the same monitor, old system vs new system.

Old

New

Old

New

So not a massive difference to be honest. I'll do a similar comparison later when it's dark but even if they're as close in quality as these daytime pictures, there's no sense in spending £500 to have a newer system and the same quality of image.

I'd rather either keep the old system, or spend more for a real improvement.

 

[DrPhilG]

Heres one of mine from the other night , just popped latest firmware on then captured this with my PTZ...

View attachment 1870

Is it a case that my fuzzy image is because its pitch black? Your view there has a fair bit of light. Street lights, houses etc.

My fuzzy image had no ambient light at all as I live in the countryside and there were no outside lights on.

I did some night tests tonight and the results were much different.

This picture is from my old system. When it's dark, it's just dark. Only thing showing is the reflection on the car license plate.

This is with the new camera. Grainy image, but even with no light at all I can still see the yard, fence, boat etc.

And when the outside security light came on the image was actually very clear.

So maybe it's not as bad as I feared?

I also went back through and checked the recordings from the day. This looks a lot better than my side by side shots later.

 

[DrPhilG]

I've been in contact with the company I bought the kit from, they have agreed to refund me but also suggested that I adjust my cameras and test again before I confirm.

He said that the reason for the overly fuzzy night vision image is that the camera is pointed much too high, and as a result the IRs are pointing into the sky. For example these 2 pictures are from the same new camera with a bit of ambient light, but first time it is aimed high and the other I had adjusted it down a little. It's a different outside light on, the far end of the yard in the first one and the back door sensor light second time but a major difference in the image quality.

View attachment 1881

View attachment 1880


And here it is in complete darkness with no outside lights on. First one it is aimed too high, second with it lower down. The detail is actually pretty clear as I approach the cam. Again neither outside light is on at this stage.

View attachment 1883

View attachment 1882

And compare that last image, pitch dark - person and rear wall visible, outline of the car - with this pitch dark image from the old camera: not as clear and nothing visible apart from the number plate reflection. (the side of house appears yellow there but that's just an effect of the phone camera picture).
View attachment 1884

So what's your thoughts @Phil and @pyrotenax ?

Have I jumped to conclusions? Is a little adjustment all that I need to clear this up to a good level?

 

[pyrotenax]

I personally think that you as the customer , should be happy with what you buy.
If it has been installed in a way that doesnt give the best quality you expect, but after it is adjusted in a way that is satisfactory to you , you are then satisfied ....then maybe keep it ?

On the otherhand , if the company are willing to give you a refund and you return it, you can take that option and then go through the procedure of which NVR/camera(s) option to go for

 

[DrPhilG]

Yeah @pyrotenax I suspect that I could get it to a satisfactory level. The kit cost me £500

But I could also get the Hikvision NVR you recommended, and 4 of the 5mp cameras, for about £900.

Is that extra quality worth nearly double, I'm not sure. I think I'll go the whole hog tonight and duct tape the new cameras into the same spot as the old ones (with a bit of paper over it to protect it in case they do need to go back).

That way I can get a definite 100% answer on whether it is good enough. I could always upgrade individual cameras later one at a time as prices come down.

 

[DrPhilG]

A lot of duct tape and luck later, and I've plastered the new cameras to the house in what would be their final position. Again (surprise surprise) I'm confused.

4 images below.

First is the old camera - very dark, not great night vision, only the car plate although it can be read

Next is my first attempt with the new camera - too high, very grainy due to IRs pointing to the sky and too much of the building showing

Third is the new camera - lower down and the best quality so far, despite the glare from the window sill

Finally last night's attempt - probably a little too low as I can't see the garage at all but less sky and less building, yet the previous picture is probably slightly better quality with less grain.

So any ideas why the mid height image is better quality than the one from the most recent one, even though it had more building reflection and more sky?

At least I can safely say that the quality can be achieved, as the picture with me in it is definitely sufficient quality for me to accept. But I'm just lost as to how to best position it to achieve that quality.